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[liberationtech] I LOVE technology, but WI WI WI WI WI WI WI WI WI WI WI

Peter Lindener lindener.peter at
Fri Apr 8 19:17:56 PDT 2011

    Sheila -

   To clarify...I am all for Audit-able, hand countable Paper
a parallel path for Tallying and evaluation of Voter Input....   That said,
and you are welcome to work the computation by hand, as many first
acquainting them self with the math often do ( examples are fully expand
thru-out our paper.  If one wants to Tally Ranked Choice Ballots ( our paper
enplanes why they are necessary ),
one will need to independently tally all pair-wise combinations of

   I think this computation is more than you may have envisioned...but its
is still doable by hand, as most all formal computations theoretically

   I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect that any system document
each Ballot on Paper...and for that mater any one who might want.... is
certainly welcome to Tally them up by hand.....   On the other hand, I
personally with my own computer ( along side hundreds if not thousands of
others ) can independently validate and then add up all the digitally signed
ballots if they are supplied to me as a publicly accessible file... That
is.... I can personally add up the entire election using my own computer...
running an open source publicly readable program...and expect to get the
EXACT result at the other few hundred people who have chosen to do the
    Now you would be welcome to add up that same information represented on
Paper Ballots...and find that the answer when accomplished by hand happened
to turn out to be the same.........   I gather some might stay fairly busy
doing this calculation by hand......

  As long as the cost of validating the election result is minimied, at the
same time the the results accuracy is GUARANTEED.....I'm happy, we can
certainly print out a set of Digitaly signed Paper Ballots for
verification..... to provide for less would but such systems in the Diebold
camp........ I personally have had enough of that game.


On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Peter Lindener <lindener.peter at>wrote:

> Sheila -
>    I think Dave is spot on,   Digital systems tend to further extend the
> what one is already doing in some if the system is broken putting
> its Information Process into a Computer would leave it that way......   I do
> think this is a mater of clear cut, orderly administration.... the Advantage
> with using a computer to do it, is that once one manages to fully secure the
> ends to stay that way......   I.e one does not need to worry
> that next time it will somehow be different......  Once programmed into the
> systems It is very cheap to do full very though auditing, that one needs to
> only program once.......
>    -Peter
> On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Sheila Parks <sheilaruthparks at>wrote:
>> I have just come in and merely glanced at all emails, except this last
>> one, that I am reading now. I will read the others later
>> Assuming you have seen and are following what is going on in WI about the
>> Supreme Court election and its RIGGING,
>> To call it an "administrative issue" is simply just plain wrong, not only
>> in WI now, but everywhere
>> Furthermore, to make such a statement without offering what you mean by it
>> is an insult to all of us or should we just take your word for it?
>> Had the election been a secure (meaning ballot custody before during and
>> after) hand-counted ballots one in all jurisdictions, this could not have
>> been happening
>> I am interested in what those of you who like e-voting machines and/or see
>> no danger in them think about what is going on in WI now with the election I
>> mentioned above
>> You are aware, I trust that they "ran out of ballots" and many voters had
>> to vote on DRE's, with no paper trail,
>> Sheila
>> At 02:13 PM 4/8/2011, David Jandura wrote:
>>> While we should make every effort to measure the impact of introducing
>>> new technology into any process, I think there is a tendency to overstate
>>> its effect in any direction.  Technology is a tool, not an independent
>>> actor.  In most situations, technology amplifies intent; both deficiencies
>>> and capabilities will become more apparent. Election fraud is fundamentally
>>> an administrative issue.
>>> David
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