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[liberationtech] Privacy, Moglen, @ioerror, #rp12

Pavol Luptak wilder at
Sat May 19 14:21:56 PDT 2012

On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 08:17:24PM -0500, Douglas Lucas wrote:
>    > I believe that if ever there will be a better society than this one,
>    > it has to be based on voluntary decisions and non-coercion.
>    I wish I could accept that all coercion is wrong, but building a society
>    based on voluntary decisions and non-coercion wouldn't work, in my
>    opinion, because both concepts are gray areas, both concepts admit of
>    degrees. Especially where there are vast inequalities in power. For

Solving inequalities in power by enforcing much more bigger power (that can
be misused, because people in the governments are as bad as the other common 
people if not worse) - is a loop....

>    example, when a ginormous company buys big blinking billboards outside my
>    home to assault my visual field, I'm coerced into seeing them, since my
>    need to leave the house isn't very optional, isn't fully voluntary. That's
>    not an argument against billboards or for central planning or anything
>    else, really, except to say that "voluntary" and "non-coercive" are not as
>    simple of terms as they might first appear.

In the free society you can try to sue this company with blinking billboards
(as well as you can do it now). Just will use private decentralized reputable
legal system.

Many people think that in the free society anybody can build an atom bomb 
on his private land without any problems. No he can't. He apparently endangers
other people that will sue him. Regardless of the fact, that building the atom
bomb is extremely expensive and those who can afford it now, they are usually
those who are writing "laws" (or can easily modify them).

All these concerns that the strongest one will govern us are crazy 
(they already did it :-)

>    However government winds up organized, I think we need (some degree of)
>    regulations and social insurance -- and thus, coercion -- to keep things
>    fair. Otherwise some of us gorillas will rig the system to keep hoarding

The goal of social insurance is to provide solidarity to poor people.
But solidarity has to be voluntary, if it is coercion solidarity, it is not
solidarity anymore.

>    most of the bananas. Show me a different world in a thousand years and
>    maybe I'll change my mind.

See this:

and Banksy:

[wilder at] [] [talker: 5678]

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