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[liberationtech] Commercialization makes your online rights irrelevant, more thoughts from my talk with @ioerror at #rp12

Dmytri Kleiner dk at
Tue May 22 00:22:44 PDT 2012

On 22.05.2012 00:22, Pavol Luptak wrote:

> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 03:01:21PM +0200, Dmytri Kleiner wrote:
>> If they received similar financing, p2p and distributed applications

> From who?

Ultimately, from the people using it.

> And how do you want to solve it without stealing money from the other 
> people?

Taxation is not stealing.

In a market economy taxation allows us to socially manage community 
created value, and prevent such value from being captured for private 
gain. For example, taxes on location rents, natural resource usage, and 
negative externalities, are all non-appropriating usages of taxation, 
and thus prove your "taxation is stealing" argument is demonstrably 

Here's a fun fact: Taxation created markets. None existed before, and 
probably would never have otherwise developed. Until they where required 
to pay taxes, producers where not merchants, didn't really trade their 
goods for fixed prices, and in fact didn't really produce for exchange 
value at all.

Once we socially develop beyond a market economy, we may no longer need 
taxation either.

> Do you know at least one famous and world-know economist who shares 
> your
> opinion?

All of them. No serious economist would disagree.

If I where to recommend one, then Kalecki's "Political Aspects of Full 
Employment" (1943) is a classic, which even covers why certain "economic 
experts" pretend to not understand basic econoics: "obstinate ignorance 
is usually a manifestation of underlying political motives" -- It's a 
must read!

If you would rather have more contemporary authors, then check out L. 
Randall Wray, Bill Mitchell, Peter Cooper, and the others developing 
"Modern Monetary Theory." I doubt you will though, it's too much fun to 
spout long discredited nonsense like neoclassical "zombie economics." 
(google that term)

There are two names that most will know: Abba Lerner and John Maynard 
Keynes. Of course these two names will make your neoclassical blood 
boil. In which case I simply refer you to the Kalecki quote above.

Will you please go back to Galt's Gulch now?

Dmytri Kleiner
Venture Communist

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