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[liberationtech] NSA and the exchanges

Eugen Leitl eugen at
Wed Oct 31 14:36:03 PDT 2012

----- Forwarded message from John Young <jya at> -----

From: John Young <jya at>
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:12:14 -0400
To: cypherpunks at, Eugen Leitl <eugen at>
Subject: Re: NSA and the exchanges
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version

Under the decades-old five-party surveillance agreement --
US, UK, CA, AU and NZ, also known as Echelon -- the nations
share information and swap staff. They also spy on each other's
citizens when barred from doing so directly.

The tricky part is if an temporary NSA staff member in CA is sitting next to
a CA member spying on US citizens (same for the roles swapped)
is there a literal firewall between the two's computers as well as
physically between the staff, or is that handled by lawyers waving
magic wands, as do the CIA's lawyers finger a drone target.

The other tricky part is what is called "de minimus" spying on
citizens where if a signal of a banned target is "inadvertently"
acquired how thoroughly is the signal quashed. One version
says that the spying agency archives the signal, indefinitely,
and does not distribute to customers (unless winked by
lawyers), but is everready to retrieve the signal should
circumstances and secret presidential orders demand
as with the EFF/ATT/NSA affair.

Utah Data Center is reportedly being built to store virtually
unlimited amounts of data and signal in the expectation that
everything may become useful at some point, with newly
born algorithms sifting for overlooked needles.

In this sense, it is reasonable to assume that Echelon has
been superceded by secret laws allowing the spies to do
whatever is needed to spy their citizens and anybody else --
leaving open-ended what "needed" means to avoid another
Pearl Harbor, OMG!

Perpetual war justifies this full-dominance pan-survellience,
as recently reported in WaPo with respect to drones and
the spying acquiring citizen targets, including those of
the five-parties who foolishly question authority with
the expectation that freedom of expression is inviolable.

Nothing in this is new: nations have been doing this since
nationhood was invented to delude citizens into believing
royal secrecy and greed was over not insitutionalized
in the world's spying machines, aka, telecommunications,
Internet, Tor, encryption, anonymizers, WOT, human
rights initiatives, cyber-freedom fighting.

One way to de minimizing yourself is to work for the
spies, so the recruiters promise, however, only later
do you learn about how they spy on insiders -- for life,
using the tried and true means and methods of
ex-spies sent out to join the outsiders with tales
of despicable spyng by methods intendd to deflect
deeper inquiry.

At 03:59 PM 10/31/2012, you wrote:
> ----- Forwarded message from John Adams <jna at> -----
> From: John Adams <jna at>
> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:37:52 -0700
> To: andy lam <anwalam at>
> Cc: "nanog at" <nanog at>
> Subject: Re: NSA and the exchanges
> Allegedly? No, definately.
> -j
> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:25 AM, andy lam <anwalam at> wrote:
> > Anyone knows if there's a way to find out how involved NSA monitors 151
> > front street at Toronto?  NSA allegedly monitors data centres in the US,
> > but does it have the same influence at a building sitting in its neighbor's
> > soil?
> >
> > There's something on the web like that tries to piece it
> > together.  but not sure how helpful the information on there really is?
> >
> >
> > feedback welcome.
> >
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> --
> Eugen* Leitl <a href="">leitl</a>
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820
> 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

----- End forwarded message -----
Eugen* Leitl <a href="">leitl</a>
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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