Search Mailing List Archives

Limit search to: Subject & Body Subject Author
Sort by: Reverse Sort
Limit to: All This Week Last Week This Month Last Month
Select Date Range     through    

[liberationtech] going back to Nadim's original question

Shava Nerad shava23 at
Wed Aug 7 06:12:33 PDT 2013

What I'm saying, Nadim, is that it's projection.  Everything you say, you
need to look in a mirror.

I haven't worked for Tor since 2007.


On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Nadim Kobeissi <nadim at> wrote:

> On 2013-08-07, at 3:22 PM, Shava Nerad <shava23 at> wrote:
> > Forgive me, but I'd like to ask a question here.
> > Tor is a tool that is undeniably, directly marketed toward activists in
> high-risk environments. Tor's presentations at conferences centre around
> how Tor obtains increased usage in Arab Spring countries that matches the
> timeline of revolutionary action. It's incredibly direct. Tor's own
> spokespeople encourage people in Iran, Egypt and so on to use Tor and only
> Tor as the most secure tool for activist anonymity, and privacy.
> > Now, we find out that the FBI has been sitting on an exploit since an
> unknown amount of time that can compromise the Tor Browser Bundle, which is
> currently the main way to download Tor and the only way to download Tor for
> the average end-user, and is deploying it en-masse to the visitors of what
> seems to be around half of all Tor hidden services, which have also been
> compromised
> > I've gotten quite some flak from certain people at Tor for supposedly
> marketing Cryptocat to activists, which is not something I do, but that the
> media did last year. We know for a fact that Tor does in fact market to
> activists. And yet, I have a feeling that the flak towards Tor, for
> something this incredibly huge, will be quite small, on this mailing list
> and on other discussion forums, especially compared to the kind of vitriol
> Cryptocat receives.
> > I would like an explanation as to why this is the case.
> > NK
> >
> > Forgive me but I would like to answer a question here.
> >
> > The reason, since you ask, Nadim, is that it is because you are a
> contentious person who attacks people relentlessly who you feel are rivals,
> whether they are Tor or Silent Circle, or anyone else in the landscape.
>  You go after them to wear them down, with some attitude that you are some
> crusader for good, when in reality, you are just going after people to wear
> them out with the same points over and over again because you want to be
> seen as better than they are.  It seems to be about ego and stamina.
> Sorry, Libtech, I have no idea why this was sent to the list and not to me
> individually.
> Shava,
> The amount of sheer, unfiltered anger and hatred in your email is really
> messed up. But I'll answer it.
> Let me first clarify that I absolutely do not see Tor or Silent Circle as
> a rival. Tor is anonymity software. Silent Circle is encrypted phone call
> software for mobile phones. I make encrypted web chat software, which is
> completely unrelated to Tor and only quite distantly related to Silent
> Circle. It makes absolutely no sense for me to see those two as competitors.
> With that clarified, I'll answer your email, even though I don't think it
> belongs on this list, but should have been sent to me privately.
> Yes, I was a relentless with Jacob. The reason I did this was simply to
> try and show him what it feels like to be treated like this when you have a
> security vulnerability. This is exactly how Jacob treats every project
> around him when they're in a bad situation, when he's in a good mood. When
> he's in a bad mood, he is incredibly abusive.
> I did not mean to attack Tor. But I sent critical responses to Jacob's
> emails. I did this because the guy needs to learn a lesson about what it
> feels like to be treated like this. Jacob has a problem. For years, I have
> been abused in private and in public by Jacob regarding my work on
> Cryptocat, in ways that are so underhanded that if I described them on this
> list, you would not even believe me. He does this to *many projects*. You
> obviously have no idea what I'm talking about, or you wouldn't have sent
> this email. But many do, and they understand. I think Tor needs to very
> urgently stop legitimizing someone like him.
> Tor reacted responsibly. Jacob reacted the way he usually does, except
> with an additional small dash of professionalism due to the pressure. I
> wanted to use this opportunity to give Jacob a taste of his own medicine
> with the hope that he will understand what it feels like for him to treat
> anyone in a weak situation the way he does. Notice that I stopped sending
> emails when he did in fact politely concede to my concerns, and I I didn't
> even go a tenth as far as he has done with me and other projects.
> >
> > Vitriol is what you produce, Nadim, and so it is what you invite when
> something erupts in your own vicinity.  That's karma.  Look what you are
> laying in terms of land mines for when something comes up for your own
> stuff?  Think about it.  You are being relentless, and  you are taking time
> away from emergency response from people who are strapped for time right
> now.  It's not sane.
> You're saying that it's normal for people to expect "land mines" when
> "something comes up with [their] own stuff". Well, this is exactly what
> happened here. I've been abused professionally and personally by Jacob for
> years. I privately, politely, correctly complained to Tor but was snubbed
> off quite unceremoniously. So I decided to treat him the way he treats
> smaller projects to try and show him what it felt like. I repeat: I didn't
> even go a tenth as far as he does (most of his vitriol is not public), and
> here I am honestly explaining things to you. To be honest, I feel your
> email is more vitriolic than everything I've said to Jacob on this mailing
> list for the past week combined.
> And yes, this drains my time too. Including this email; I don't understand
> how you found the time to write it yourself.
> Your email almost reads like hate mail, and I can't think of a reason
> you'd send it in public instead of to me directly. Do you still work for
> Tor?
> NK
> >
> > Everyone here observes this, so it's just not an ad hominem, and you ask
> for an answer so I can't possibly be called on for answering the question.
>  And I'm sure there are others here who will, in the interest of peer
> counseling, tell you that your attitude is not helping you.  You will find
> that if you learn to mellow out and ratchet down a bit, you will get more
> out of the community back in return.
> >
> > And this is why you get no respect from the community for CryptoCat --
> because you extend no respect to the people in your same space.  You get
> back what you give.  This is a basic law of the universe.
> >
> > Now that I have answered your original question, will you please stop
> talking in circles?  I suspect a great many people are tired of it, and it
> is not serving anyone in the long term.  It does not serve"justice," nor
> "the users," nor the future of your project, and I do not think it is not
> serving your reputation.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > yrs,
> > --
> >
> > Shava Nerad
> > shava23 at
> > --
> > Liberationtech list is public and archives are searchable on Google. Too
> many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing
> moderator at companys at or changing your settings at
> --
> Liberationtech list is public and archives are searchable on Google. Too
> many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing
> moderator at companys at or changing your settings at


Shava Nerad
shava23 at
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <>

More information about the liberationtech mailing list