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[liberationtech] Stability in truly "Democratic" decision systems

Peter Lindener lindener.peter at
Tue Jul 9 20:34:18 PDT 2013

Doug C.-

   You steer the conversation in interesting directions, I take it you meant

   The Quakers do seem to have there act together....   it's interesting
that you might want to start there...   as the foundation validity of our
work is first established by way of thought exercises withing the fully
cooperative context.. and then we go from there...  and As my Co-Author Joey
Durham <> pointer
out critically, "the real magic happens during the group's deliberative
process, as opposed to at the point of ultimate decision",   I would have
to agree, and I gather your reference to
only makes the point further.

   Things get a bit more challenging as Strategic vote gaming stress is
introduced into the picture..... But I think your point as well as Dr.
Durham's is that it is best to reduce such stress related problems before
they would reach any sense of consequence regarding the more challenging,
Game theory related aspects involved in the formulation of a "truly
democratic" choice function that consistently always represents the
interest of each and every member of the electorate.

   I think Joey's point was that in the end, a group's Social Decision
system will work much better, if the Cardinal valued Ranked alternative
Choice function at it's core, functions under circumstances of reduced
gaming stress..

   As on ventures on the algebraic reasoning that unfolds...  the point you
and Joey make above becomes most distinctly apparent. That is: as one
struggles with erosion of formal utility coherence associated with a pure
summation of voluntarily scaled benifit-cost utility vectors, associated
with the ideal fully cooperative group decision process, to along the way
encounter Condorcet's Game hardened pair-wise differential rank analysis,
that is arguably correct when it does yield a a coherent answer ( it often
does not ), and onward to our insight that the best resolution of any Top
cycle (Schwartz set) incoherent pair-wise ranking, would best be resolved
in terms of the prioritizing the pairwise win/loos relationships in terms
of the median of each pair-wise differential preference distribution..   At
his point, while we could have discussions about how best to resolve these
cyclically ranked majority.....
   I gather it might be best to avoid the confusion of a sub-optimal group
decision that would ever need to deal with these formal voting systems
issues in the first.

   Let me express my gratitude, that you would steer this thread's
discussion in this kind of a constructive direction..

    All the best


On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Doug Chamberlin
<chamberlin.doug at>wrote:

> Seems to me sociocracy would provide some interesting ideas on this
> genuine democracy concept. Check it out.
> --
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