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[liberationtech] Call for Participants @ Noisy Square - Putting the Resistance back in OHM

Jacob Appelbaum jacob at
Mon Jun 24 16:53:58 PDT 2013

Jurre andmore:
> 2013/6/25 Jacob Appelbaum <jacob at>
>> Nadim Kobeissi:
>>> On 2013-06-24, at 6:23 PM, Griffin Boyce
>>> <griffinboyce at> wrote:
>>>> Not only am I going to be presenting three talks at OHM, I will
>>>> be presenting talks that are (in many ways) totally dead
>>>> conversations in the US.
>>>> It's interesting how much of the debate centers around the
>>>> presence of police at OHM, as if American hacker cons didn't
>>>> have the head of the NSA presenting keynotes. Or congratulating
>>>> a child for doing things an adult could be prosecuted for.  I
>>>> find it really hard to pass judgement on OHM organizers when
>>>> our own ecosystem is so unbelievably toxic.
>>> Hear hear, Griffin. Also, Micah made some good points.
>>> Adding on what Griffin and Micah have saidI think OHM is an 
>>> opportunity for those discussions to happen between legitimate
>>> people at a legitimate and exciting event.
>> Legitimate? You mean the event that has driven away a number of
>> people, including those who don't feel safe but wanted to be a part
>> of the discussion?
>> Using the word legitimate is a rhetorical disarming tactic in such
>> a social context. It declares a really contentious situation to be
>> safe for all when many have dissented. The social contract hasn't
>> changed to take their concerns into account, either.
>> Pretty illegitimate if you ask me!
>>> I myself am presenting a talk and a workshop at OHM and
>>> NoisySquare.
>> Congratulations on your talk and workshop.
>>> If you want to focus your ire on something, go take a look at
>>> how DEFCON and BlackHat are inviting NSA Director Keith Alexander
>>> to give the keynote!
>> Why not both? The Dutch intelligence will be undercover watching
>> OHM, right? They're able to access and use NSA intercepts, much to
>> the previously quite over the top nationalist hackers chagrin.
> Unless the AIVD will cut and splice the fiber somewhere along the way
> or install blackboxes without the NOC knowing at the DC which is NOC 
> controlled (who don't like spooks at all..) I don't see how this
> stands-up.

Did you see the BOUNDLESSINFORMANT map? Did you hear about the
statements by various members of the Dutch government about using PRISM?

Is there a reason to think that OHM is exempt from NSA dragnet
surveillance and that AiVD will never query the NSA database for such

> Next to that, the AIVD/MIVD hasn't deployed a nationwide
> eavesdropping setup for internet unlike the Swedes, Germans and
> Americans.

I find it a bit hard to imagine being so certain about what spy agencies
*aren't* doing.

Did you feel certain that there was also {an or no} NSA program spying
on the Netherlands? Or perhaps just as certain that AiVD used and
continues to use the data gleaned from that system (of systems)?

I wouldn't be so sure about AiVD/MiVD having deployed or not having
deployed a nationwide eavesdropping setup. Furthermore, if they get to
query the NSA database, I'd hardly say that it matters if they deployed
it. Though I'm sure they helped when requested. In any case, what
matters to the Big Picture is that they take what they need, what or are
able to get from such a system.

> GSM is a different story..

I'd say it is essentially the same story at a different scale. Though
with GSM, we've had trouble denying it for quite some time. I suppose it
will take time to come to terms with the latest news.

All the best,

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