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[liberationtech] Call for Participants @ Noisy Square - Putting the Resistance back in OHM

Jurre andmore drwhax at
Mon Jun 24 17:06:45 PDT 2013

2013/6/25 Jacob Appelbaum <jacob at>

> Jurre andmore:
> > 2013/6/25 Jacob Appelbaum <jacob at>
> >
> >> Nadim Kobeissi:
> >>>
> >>> On 2013-06-24, at 6:23 PM, Griffin Boyce
> >>> <griffinboyce at> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Not only am I going to be presenting three talks at OHM, I will
> >>>> be presenting talks that are (in many ways) totally dead
> >>>> conversations in the US.
> >>>>
> >>>> It's interesting how much of the debate centers around the
> >>>> presence of police at OHM, as if American hacker cons didn't
> >>>> have the head of the NSA presenting keynotes. Or congratulating
> >>>> a child for doing things an adult could be prosecuted for.  I
> >>>> find it really hard to pass judgement on OHM organizers when
> >>>> our own ecosystem is so unbelievably toxic.
> >>>
> >>> Hear hear, Griffin. Also, Micah made some good points.
> >>>
> >>> Adding on what Griffin and Micah have saidI think OHM is an
> >>> opportunity for those discussions to happen between legitimate
> >>> people at a legitimate and exciting event.
> >>
> >> Legitimate? You mean the event that has driven away a number of
> >> people, including those who don't feel safe but wanted to be a part
> >> of the discussion?
> >>
> >> Using the word legitimate is a rhetorical disarming tactic in such
> >> a social context. It declares a really contentious situation to be
> >> safe for all when many have dissented. The social contract hasn't
> >> changed to take their concerns into account, either.
> >>
> >> Pretty illegitimate if you ask me!
> >>
> >>> I myself am presenting a talk and a workshop at OHM and
> >>> NoisySquare.
> >>
> >> Congratulations on your talk and workshop.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> If you want to focus your ire on something, go take a look at
> >>> how DEFCON and BlackHat are inviting NSA Director Keith Alexander
> >>> to give the keynote!
> >>>
> >>
> >> Why not both? The Dutch intelligence will be undercover watching
> >> OHM, right? They're able to access and use NSA intercepts, much to
> >> the previously quite over the top nationalist hackers chagrin.
> >>
> >
> > Unless the AIVD will cut and splice the fiber somewhere along the way
> > or install blackboxes without the NOC knowing at the DC which is NOC
> > controlled (who don't like spooks at all..) I don't see how this
> > stands-up.
> Did you see the BOUNDLESSINFORMANT map? Did you hear about the
> statements by various members of the Dutch government about using PRISM?

Yes I watched the discussion in parliament about this, there is a lot
unclear. All what I know off, there aren't any spook black boxes at the
main gateways in Amsterdam.

> Is there a reason to think that OHM is exempt from NSA dragnet
> surveillance and that AiVD will never query the NSA database for such
> information?

Probably they will like all the previous conferences before or the early
infiltrations that they did during the hippies from hell era. The Amsterdam
TOOOL association of lockpickers got an undercover cop at their meetings
for a while.

> > Next to that, the AIVD/MIVD hasn't deployed a nationwide
> > eavesdropping setup for internet unlike the Swedes, Germans and
> > Americans.
> I find it a bit hard to imagine being so certain about what spy agencies
> *aren't* doing.
> Did you feel certain that there was also {an or no} NSA program spying
> on the Netherlands? Or perhaps just as certain that AiVD used and
> continues to use the data gleaned from that system (of systems)?

I don't see how much this is related to the ohm discussion, I thought we
had more class but at the same time that was having a bit of hope left. I
guess we were all wrong.

> I wouldn't be so sure about AiVD/MiVD having deployed or not having
> deployed a nationwide eavesdropping setup. Furthermore, if they get to
> query the NSA database, I'd hardly say that it matters if they deployed
> it. Though I'm sure they helped when requested. In any case, what
> matters to the Big Picture is that they take what they need, what or are
> able to get from such a system.

They are ramping such a system up but it isn't in place yet, remember, they
are firing 600 people in the following years.

> >
> > GSM is a different story..
> >
> I'd say it is essentially the same story at a different scale. Though
> with GSM, we've had trouble denying it for quite some time. I suppose it
> will take time to come to terms with the latest news.
They actually do bulk intercepting, processing for keywords and storing
since the 2000s! Huzzay!

> All the best,
> Jacob
> --
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With kind regards,

Jurre van Bergen
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