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[liberationtech] Call for Participants @ Noisy Square - Putting the Resistance back in OHM

Lex van Roon r3boot at
Wed Jun 26 02:21:20 PDT 2013

On 06/25/2013 10:50, Eleanor Saitta wrote:
> On 2013.06.25 07.37, Lex van Roon wrote:
> > In my opinion, us (the people) being divided is whats taking away
> > our power, and that's imho much, MUCH more important then
> > governments losing their power and cracking down on us (the people)
> > so that they can stay in power. If we unite, we've got a chance of
> > beating them. If we dont unite, we will lose our freedom, thats how
> > I see it. So how about we let go of all the fearmongering and
> > actually start talking with each other how to fix the problems
> > we're currently facing, instead of slinging (unfounded, imho) mud
> > around ..
> This mud is very well founded, TYVM, but that's separate from my point
> here:

I do not think so, and I know most of the people involved with the orga
personally. Statements like the above imho only show premature judgement
based on unfounded rumours, but lets leave that point and continue with
the rest.

> Is this the pitch of "left unity at any cost"?  Because no, actually,
> it turns out that unity isn't the best thing ever.  Do you want a big
> tent that means nothing?  Do you think that the OHM orga is united in
> fighting for the destruction of the power of all governments to
> oppress their citizens?  Their actions indicate otherwise.  The
> pushback you're getting here is that no, we're not all actually on the
> same side.

Thing is, as a dutch citizen, I do not (yet) believe that *all*
governments need to be destroyed because they oppress their citizens
(your words, not mine). The simple reasoning behind this, is that people
can be 'loosely' divided into two groups: leaders and followers. If we'd
follow your plan and destroy all governments, that would imply that all
the followers would be without a leader. And you probably also understand
what happens next right, the power vaccuum will be filled by someone that
will abuse that position. Since we, as a global hacker community, do not
have any power structures that we could use to fill this void, every
action that takes place to create that void will be detrimental to our
cause. And *thats* why I call for unity instead of division. We might
not agree on everything, but we will need to have an united voice and an
united power structure if we want to make a difference against the big

Look, in the netherlands, we do not yet have or had any upcoming authoritarian
/ totalitarian government like the us or germany for instance. We know that it
will happen over time, since the netherlands is for most part a follower of
the .us and .uk political flows. Yes, this means that we currently have
a generation of people that is so laidback and comfortable that we're a
ripe target for a government with evil intentions. And also take into
account, that the netherlands is really tiny and insignificant compared to the
major players in the rest of the country. We cannot do that much about (eg)
the major pervasive surveillance, warcrimes, torture, food shortages and
other civil unrest in the rest of the world, since there are a lot of
practical issues surrounding that that will make that next to impossible.
The strict .us border control as a result of 'terrorism' comes to mind.
Our 'anti-islam' political parties didn't do very well with the rest of
the world as well, unfortunately.

There are things we can actually do. Within the netherlands, there are people
that try to help out other societies and nations with their internal problems.
Most of those people will be in NoisySquare, so if you want to meet the people
that actually *do* make a difference, that will be the place to meet them.
Dismissing all of that might be a way to proceed forward, but it's not
fair to the people that *are* fighting to make the world a better place.

> If you want a claim to unity, first show that you're on the same side.

If you would have read my disclaimer, you would have noticed that I was
talking on a personal note. You however are dismissing that and making
judgements about me based on the fact that you cannot see me and OHM
separately. This is a thinking error on your part, please correct that.
Furthermore, please do some research before you sling mud. I *am* on
your side, I only disagree with the severity of measures based on the
amount of suffering I see happening around me and based on what *I* can
change while not being imprisoned and/or shot.

> There are reasons for going that aren't about unity, and opportunities
> there that do still make it interesting, but they're about what can be
> done in a contested, unsafe space.

Like others have said before, and I shall say it again, a hacker event
is *never*ever*ever* a safe place to be, because of the enormous amount
of attention it receives from intelligence agencies and governments around
the globe. OHM is not more/less safe then any other hacker event in that

gr, Lex
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