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[liberationtech] Call for Participants @ Noisy Square - Putting the Resistance back in OHM

Lex van Roon r3boot at
Wed Jun 26 03:55:48 PDT 2013

On 06/26/2013 12:18, groente wrote:
> > > Is this the pitch of "left unity at any cost"?  Because no, actually,
> > > it turns out that unity isn't the best thing ever.  Do you want a big
> > > tent that means nothing?  Do you think that the OHM orga is united in
> > > fighting for the destruction of the power of all governments to
> > > oppress their citizens?  Their actions indicate otherwise.  The
> > > pushback you're getting here is that no, we're not all actually on the
> > > same side.
> > 
> > Thing is, as a dutch citizen, I do not (yet) believe that *all*
> > governments need to be destroyed because they oppress their citizens
> > (your words, not mine). The simple reasoning behind this, is that people
> The point was, i believe, not to destroy the government per se, but to destroy
> its power to oppress its citizens.

Ok, I thought that Eleanor was pretty explicit in her wording, but I
might be mistaking. I guess that she can make her wording more explicit
and/or clarify them.

> > can be 'loosely' divided into two groups: leaders and followers. If we'd
> > follow your plan and destroy all governments, that would imply that all
> > the followers would be without a leader. And you probably also understand
> > what happens next right, the power vaccuum will be filled by someone that
> > will abuse that position. Since we, as a global hacker community, do not
> > have any power structures that we could use to fill this void, every
> > action that takes place to create that void will be detrimental to our
> > cause. And *thats* why I call for unity instead of division. We might
> > not agree on everything, but we will need to have an united voice and an
> > united power structure if we want to make a difference against the big
> > powers.
> Well, the prerequisite for a united voice/power structure is a common goal and
> methods which are not mutually exclusive. I frankly don't see how players like
> THTC and Fox-IT fit into that picture. This may lead to awkward social situations
> where personal friends are suddenly found on the other side of the dividing line
> between those who empower the people and those who empower the state, but I fail
> to see how it is useful to unite with players whose daily praxis is the direct
> opposite of my (and i hope our) goals.

The fight we need to fight is a big one. From that perspective, it makes sense
to employ military tactics; In this context, Sun Tzu explained the reasoning 
approx two thousand years ago (translation mistakes come from wikipedia):

~ So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a
  hundred battles without a single loss.

If you look at the history of warfare, you will have noticed that this
statement still holds true and can be applied to all forms of warfare.

> > Look, in the netherlands, we do not yet have or had any upcoming authoritarian
> > / totalitarian government like the us or germany for instance. We know that it
> I'm sorry, but have you been paying attention to the ammount of new laws that
> were introduced over the last ten years? Have you forgotten we hold the world
> record in phone tapping? This kind of rhetoric about the dutch government
> supposedly being some kind of oasis of enlightenment and humanitarianism among
> the evil states that surround it seems to be based on either naivety or blatant
> nationalism, i'm not sure which is worse..

I haven't forgotten what our government does, and if you would have read the
rest of the paragraph, you'll notice that I'm not making up excuses for the
dutch government. I'm just clarifying things from a general and realistic
perspective. I oppose them as much as you do, but like I said, I disagree with
the measures we can and should take, at this moment (note this last part).

> > will happen over time, since the netherlands is for most part a follower of
> > the .us and .uk political flows. Yes, this means that we currently have
> > a generation of people that is so laidback and comfortable that we're a
> > ripe target for a government with evil intentions. And also take into
> > account, that the netherlands is really tiny and insignificant compared to the
> > major players in the rest of the country. We cannot do that much about (eg)
> > the major pervasive surveillance, warcrimes, torture, food shortages and
> > other civil unrest in the rest of the world, since there are a lot of
> > practical issues surrounding that that will make that next to impossible.
> > The strict .us border control as a result of 'terrorism' comes to mind.
> Which is different from the strict .nl border control how, exactly?
> Anyway, there are things .nl could do against pervasive surveillance, warcrimes,
> etc, but the problem is the dutch state is really not that different from (and 
> therefor just as much part of the problem as) the others. The dutch government 
> could protest prism, just like it could end its praxis of massive wiretapping,
> the point is it doesn't. That's not because .nl is a marginal player, it's
> because it has no will to do so.

And thats because the public does not care, and that's because (amongs
others) we have failed to give them the perspective they need to pickup
their roles within a democratic society and the discomfort caused by our
governments haven't reached the tipping point yet. This in turn fails to
generate the appropriate momentum needed to drive change. This is among
other things why the whole occupy movement failed imho (as an example). See
my previous comment about leaders, followers and power vacuum.

> > Our 'anti-islam' political parties didn't do very well with the rest of
> > the world as well, unfortunately.
> > 
> > There are things we can actually do. Within the netherlands, there are people
> > that try to help out other societies and nations with their internal problems.
> > Most of those people will be in NoisySquare, so if you want to meet the people
> > that actually *do* make a difference, that will be the place to meet them.
> Well, there we can agree, I'm very happy to see N^2 work out the way it does and
> hope to see you all there.

Same here! I think that N^2 will offset most of the negative rumours that
are floating around. Furthermore, I'd love to have a talk about this subject
with you guys in person, since that works much more efficient and off-the-radar
then a public ML.

> <snip> 
> >
> > Like others have said before, and I shall say it again, a hacker event
> > is *never*ever*ever* a safe place to be, because of the enormous amount
> > of attention it receives from intelligence agencies and governments around
> > the globe. OHM is not more/less safe then any other hacker event in that
> > regard.
> Surely there is no such thing as absolute safety, but we can try to maintain
> cultural norms aiming at maximizing our safety. A clear rejection of the intel
> community as our peers seems to be a good start.

Sun Tzu disagrees ;-)

gr, Lex
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