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[liberationtech] Secret European deals to hand over private data to America

Parker Higgins parker at
Sat Jun 29 16:09:22 PDT 2013

It was an Observer article, which shares a website with the Guardian despite separate staff and editorial. It was also heavily dependent on Wayne Madsen as a source, and he is a crackpot.

Guardian removed the article when they discovered what happened. Check Glenn Greenwald's timeline on Twitter for many explanations of that series of events.


Jurre andmore <drwhax at> wrote:
>Oddness all over the place, it seems the story has been pulled by the
>Guardian. Anyone who knows more?
>2013/6/29 Paul Bernal (LAW) <Paul.Bernal at>:
>> None of this should be surprising, should it? It's a reasonable
>assumption that all intelligence agencies share their data on a pretty
>regular basis - certainly with 'friendly' nations, and almost certainly
>with others, on a quid pro quo basis. It's always been that way.
>> On 29 Jun 2013, at 21:42, "Jurre andmore" <drwhax at> wrote:
>>> There was a hearing last week in Dutch parliament about PRISM. There
>>> was another interesting point being discussed a rumor that the
>>> cable in Katwijk was being eavesdropped. Not only is it
>>> but data is shared with the US!
>>> Article below:
>>> Revealed: secret European deals to hand over private data to America
>>> Germany 'among countries offering intelligence' according to new
>>> claims by former US defence analyst
>>> At least six European Union countries in addition to Britain have
>>> colluding with the US over the mass harvesting of personal
>>> communications data, according to a former contractor to America's
>>> National Security Agency, who said the public should not be "kept in
>>> the dark".
>>> Wayne Madsen, a former US navy lieutenant who first worked for
>>> in 1985 and over the next 12 years held several sensitive positions
>>> within the agency, names Denmark, the Netherlands, France, Germany,
>>> Spain and Italy as having secret deals with the US.
>>> Madsen said the countries had "formal second and third party status"
>>> under signal intelligence (Sigint) agreements that compels them to
>>> hand over data, including mobile phone and internet information to
>>> NSA if requested.
>>> Under international intelligence agreements, confirmed by
>>> documents, nations are categorised by the US according to their
>>> level. The US is first party while the UK, Canada, Australia and New
>>> Zealand enjoy second party relationships. Germany and France have
>>> third party relationships.
>>> In an interview published last night on the blog,
>>> Madsen, who has been attacked for holding controversial views on
>>> espionage issues, said he had decided to speak out after becoming
>>> concerned about the "half story" told by EU politicians regarding
>>> extent of the NSA's activities in Europe.
>>> He said that under the agreements, which were drawn up after the
>>> second world war, the "NSA gets the lion's share" of the Sigint
>>> "take". In return, the third parties to the NSA agreements received
>>> "highly sanitised intelligence".
>>> Madsen said he was alarmed at the "sanctimonious outcry" of
>>> leaders who were "feigning shock" about the spying operations while
>>> staying silent about their own arrangements with the US, and was
>>> particularly concerned that senior German politicians had accused
>>> UK of spying when their country had a similar third party deal with
>>> the NSA.
>>> Although the level of co-operation provided by other European
>>> countries to the NSA is not on the same scale as that provided by
>>> UK, the allegations are potentially embarrassing.
>>> "I can't understand how Angela Merkel can keep a straight face,
>>> demanding assurances from Obama and the UK while Germany has entered
>>> into those exact relationships," Madsen said.
>>> The Liberal Democrat MEP Baroness Ludford, a senior member of the
>>> European parliament's civil liberties, justice and home affairs
>>> committee, said Madsen's allegations confirmed that the entire
>>> for monitoring data interception was a mess, because the EU was
>>> to intervene in intelligence matters that remained the exclusive
>>> concern of national governments.
>>> "The intelligence agencies are exploiting these contradictions and
>>> one is really holding them to account," Ludford said. "It's terribly
>>> undermining to liberal democracy."
>>> Madsen's disclosures have prompted calls for European governments to
>>> come clean on their arrangements with the NSA. "There needs to be
>>> transparency as to whether or not it is legal for the US or any
>>> security service to interrogate private material," said John Cooper
>>> QC, a leading international human rights lawyer. "The problem here
>>> that none of these arrangements has been debated in any democratic
>>> arena. I agree with William Hague that sometimes things have to be
>>> done in secret, but you don't break the law in secret."
>>> Madsen said all seven European countries and the US have access to
>>> Tat 14 fibre-optic cable network running between Denmark and
>>> the Netherlands, France, the UK and the US, allowing them to
>>> vast amounts of data, including phone calls, emails and records of
>>> users' access to websites.
>>> He said the public needed to be made aware of the full scale of the
>>> communication-sharing arrangements between European countries and
>>> US, which pre-date the internet and became of strategic importance
>>> during the cold war.
>>> The covert relationship between the countries was first outlined in
>>> 2001 report by the European parliament, but their explicit
>>> with the NSA was not publicised until Madsen decided to speak out
>>> night.
>>> The European parliament's report followed revelations that the NSA
>>> conducting a global intelligence-gathering operation, known as
>>> Echelon, which appears to have established the framework for
>>> member states to collaborate with the US.
>>> "A lot of this information isn't secret, nor is it new," Madsen
>>> "It's just that governments have chosen to keep the public in the
>>> about it. The days when they could get away with a conspiracy of
>>> silence are over."
>>> This month another former NSA contractor, Edward Snowden, revealed
>>> the Guardian previously undisclosed US programmes to monitor
>>> and internet traffic. The NSA is alleged to have shared some of its
>>> data, gathered using a specialist tool called Prism, with Britain's
>>> GCHQ, although the British government denies any suggestion that it
>>> was obtained illegally. In return, GCHQ has allegedly provided huge
>>> amounts of data to the NSA.
>>> "The European parliament must intervene," said Simon Davies, who
>>> the Privacy Surgeon blog. "MEPs should put the interests of citizens
>>> above party politics and create meaningful reforms."
>>> --
>>> With kind regards,
>>> Jurre van Bergen
>>> --
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>> --
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>With kind regards,
>Jurre van Bergen
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Brevity generally requires no excuse, but nonetheless I provide: this missive was composed on a mobile keyboard.
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